Talk #1 - Jim Prigoff on Taki183
April 19th, 18h (Lisbon/ London time)
We have the intention of recording and sharing the video of all the Talks. This first Talk had a technical problem and the sound was not recorded. For this reason we share images and text.
The text are personal notes of Alicia Crumpton taken during the talk adjusted by Jim. (Thank you Alicia and Jim).
The text are personal notes of Alicia Crumpton taken during the talk adjusted by Jim. (Thank you Alicia and Jim).
Pedro (Lisbon, Portugal): Can you tell us how the documentary came about?
TAKI 183 was one of the many taggers in the early days. It was good fortune, luck that a NY times journalist wrote an article about TAKI 183, 1971. The article emboldened others to tag.
Did not develop any calligraphy. He sort of dropped out after that and was visible along with Cornbread. TAKI is a very humble guy – runs a car repair place in Yonkers. He hasn’t changed his style at all. NY was the Mecca where people came.
Pedro: In terms of the documentary – how did it happen, the idea?
Cedric Godwin – in Paris had done a film. I met him through Henry Chalfant. It was his idea to try to explain how Europe was affected by Taki. He contacted me because I knew those guys.
What’s happening today is that we’re probably 50 years into the culture. People are interested in going back and looking at the history, why it came to be, why it stayed and why it didn’t collapse. The film is part of that looking back. The Museum of Graffiti opened in Wynwood in Florida. I’m not sure about the Amsterdam museum that was scheduled to open in the fall.
Pedro: I read in the Juxtapoze interview about the latest expedition, that in high school you developed a sense of social consciousness. In the early 70s, you attended a slide show of mural art. Were you looking for mural when you were doing your first mural photo.
I was totally documenting mural art around the world. Wherever I went this tagging got in my face. 100,000 or more slides later…. Having been there from the beginning, my photography tracks the entire flow from when it developed. In the early days there was no embellishment. It was a long progression. Those who were artistic began to embellish. Those were difficult time in terms of social struggle within an American “star” culture. You gain significance by putting your name on the wall. Find the artists by observing the artists standing back seeing who looked at their work.
Re: Spray Can Art book
Re: article on Brooklyn street art
Pedro: How do you fit tagging into world peace and social justice?
The very act of tagging is a political statement. For most, the youth weren’t into politics. That wasn’t part of what they were all about. Is it art or is it vandalism? In 1982 I decided not to participate in this discussion. Of course it’s both. In Portugal – in the 70s the murals were political.
Pedro: Do you remember when you read for the first time the NY Times article on TAKI 183?
I don’t remember when I first saw the article. It was likely much later. The article had an enormous impact. TAKI 183 SPAWNS PEN PALS– everyone wanted to be a TAKI. “IN” said he wrote his name 10,000 times.
Pedro: After your extensive trajectory, Graffiti as an art form, where do you see the core of graffiti as an art form? Is it on the art form or on the tangible facts of behaviors, culture.
I think there was a competitive sense for this thing. Words like “battle” – “illegal” I describe it as permission, non-permission. Those with talent began to do characters, 3D. The trains were a major activity. Lee and Blade were writing on the trains along with dozens of others .
What are the benefits at large for graffiti and what about research?
In history, there are many art movements. Graffiti did not start as an observable art movement.
Graffiti, aerosol art, street art, urban art – regardless of what we call it – nothing can match the # of people energized by graffiti. It’s all over the world. Millions of practitioners. People are collecting the art. For scholars, the interesting investigation is why and how…. Fraternity of the streets, a sense of bonding. The reason graffiti became the main form of the Hip Hop Culture - Breaking, DJ’ing, Rapping, and Graffiti – (it’s hard to wrap in French, DJ’ing takes talent and breaking isn’t easy, but everyone could spray with a can or use a marker!
TAKI 183 was one of the many taggers in the early days. It was good fortune, luck that a NY times journalist wrote an article about TAKI 183, 1971. The article emboldened others to tag.
Did not develop any calligraphy. He sort of dropped out after that and was visible along with Cornbread. TAKI is a very humble guy – runs a car repair place in Yonkers. He hasn’t changed his style at all. NY was the Mecca where people came.
Pedro: In terms of the documentary – how did it happen, the idea?
Cedric Godwin – in Paris had done a film. I met him through Henry Chalfant. It was his idea to try to explain how Europe was affected by Taki. He contacted me because I knew those guys.
What’s happening today is that we’re probably 50 years into the culture. People are interested in going back and looking at the history, why it came to be, why it stayed and why it didn’t collapse. The film is part of that looking back. The Museum of Graffiti opened in Wynwood in Florida. I’m not sure about the Amsterdam museum that was scheduled to open in the fall.
Pedro: I read in the Juxtapoze interview about the latest expedition, that in high school you developed a sense of social consciousness. In the early 70s, you attended a slide show of mural art. Were you looking for mural when you were doing your first mural photo.
I was totally documenting mural art around the world. Wherever I went this tagging got in my face. 100,000 or more slides later…. Having been there from the beginning, my photography tracks the entire flow from when it developed. In the early days there was no embellishment. It was a long progression. Those who were artistic began to embellish. Those were difficult time in terms of social struggle within an American “star” culture. You gain significance by putting your name on the wall. Find the artists by observing the artists standing back seeing who looked at their work.
Re: Spray Can Art book
Re: article on Brooklyn street art
Pedro: How do you fit tagging into world peace and social justice?
The very act of tagging is a political statement. For most, the youth weren’t into politics. That wasn’t part of what they were all about. Is it art or is it vandalism? In 1982 I decided not to participate in this discussion. Of course it’s both. In Portugal – in the 70s the murals were political.
Pedro: Do you remember when you read for the first time the NY Times article on TAKI 183?
I don’t remember when I first saw the article. It was likely much later. The article had an enormous impact. TAKI 183 SPAWNS PEN PALS– everyone wanted to be a TAKI. “IN” said he wrote his name 10,000 times.
Pedro: After your extensive trajectory, Graffiti as an art form, where do you see the core of graffiti as an art form? Is it on the art form or on the tangible facts of behaviors, culture.
I think there was a competitive sense for this thing. Words like “battle” – “illegal” I describe it as permission, non-permission. Those with talent began to do characters, 3D. The trains were a major activity. Lee and Blade were writing on the trains along with dozens of others .
What are the benefits at large for graffiti and what about research?
In history, there are many art movements. Graffiti did not start as an observable art movement.
Graffiti, aerosol art, street art, urban art – regardless of what we call it – nothing can match the # of people energized by graffiti. It’s all over the world. Millions of practitioners. People are collecting the art. For scholars, the interesting investigation is why and how…. Fraternity of the streets, a sense of bonding. The reason graffiti became the main form of the Hip Hop Culture - Breaking, DJ’ing, Rapping, and Graffiti – (it’s hard to wrap in French, DJ’ing takes talent and breaking isn’t easy, but everyone could spray with a can or use a marker!
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Johannes Stahl (Cologne, Germany) – Robert Summer wrote an article about art in the 1960s claiming that murals were taking in lots of people. Possible there’s more than one linkage between graffiti and murals. Why did murals get out of sight in this discussion?
Murals have been painted in many periods – e.g., WPA murals. 1200 to 1400 murals painted in post offices and schools. Many went to Mexico to paint with the Tres Grandes. Since they weren’t ale to get in the galleries, they went to the walls. Collectors like to focus on the stars. See book: Walls of Heritage, Walls of Pride. Graffiti artists weren’t particularly interested in murals. In the art world, Keith Haring and Basquiat began to absorb a lot of the energy. Many went to art school and began to see a more formal way of painting on the walls. Art forms either die or they progress. Very few places that one cannot find some sort of art related to graffiti….
Johannes Stahl, there’s still a political question. Whether murals take ‘normal people in’?
In the US, the first major mural is the Wall of Respect in Chicago. Bill Walker paint very political murals in south side of Chicago. Murals were mostly political from the start. The artists were trained. Some walls became symbols for the entire neighbourhood and became places for meetings and events. T-Kid starts with a simple T-Kid 170 tag and becomes a famous artist. The mural movement started with people with significant talent.
Alicia Crumpton (USA, Arizona) – What are some trends you’re observing? Where does it go from here?
I have no idea. I spoke about tributaries coming together (graffiti, galleries, merchandising, etc.).
RISK went on to found a clothing company. He always had a sense that it was going to take him to a significant future.. The writers for the most part had no idea of this as an art form that would go anywhere.
I have no idea. I spoke about tributaries coming together (graffiti, galleries, merchandising, etc.).
RISK went on to found a clothing company. He always had a sense that it was going to take him to a significant future.. The writers for the most part had no idea of this as an art form that would go anywhere.
Jacob Kimvall (Stockholm, Sweden) - Spray Can Art sits alongside the Holy books – Did you or have you felt the cult status of the book and when did it hit you that it had a cult status? Why was there never a Spray Can Art 2?
I went to Thames and Hudson and said it is time to do a 2nd book. Their response was NO. “We’re concerned that if you do another book, it will impair sales of 1st book”. I went to many publishers, but they didn’t want to print sufficient copies. Doing a book takes a lot of time, energy…I’ve done three books and that’s enough. Somewhere I need to find a proper place to archive what I have because I have a broad history. Tony Silver introduced me to Henry Chalfant – I wanted to take a perspective across the United States. As we got started, Henry said “We need to go around the world”. That made a huge difference.
Isabel Carrasco Castro In Madrid, not in the city centre but in the suburbs, the scene started. What is the relationship between graffiti and calligraphy? You mentioned how TAKI did not develop calligraphy. Calligraphy history ignores graffiti. I have the impression that Shoe in the Netherlands was trying to emulate the old school classical calligraphy the way scripts were written. Taggers and graffiti writers were developing their own typography. Is it a question of appreciation or perspective.
CHAKA –was a young man in LA who wrote his name hundreds of times. I told him to get some calligraphy! Not a lot of good calligrapher. You have in Amsterdam the great Niels Meulman. Are there many good calligraphers, no, that wasn’t the focus. The real calligraphy is in cholo writing – the old English style, many styles. CHAZ in America is a master calligrapher. He’s the godfather in the US, back to the early 60s. Chicago graffiti book on gang graffiti in Chicago: Compliments of Chicagohoodz.
CHAKA –was a young man in LA who wrote his name hundreds of times. I told him to get some calligraphy! Not a lot of good calligrapher. You have in Amsterdam the great Niels Meulman. Are there many good calligraphers, no, that wasn’t the focus. The real calligraphy is in cholo writing – the old English style, many styles. CHAZ in America is a master calligrapher. He’s the godfather in the US, back to the early 60s. Chicago graffiti book on gang graffiti in Chicago: Compliments of Chicagohoodz.
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Suse Hansen (UK, London) – What do you think the role of photography is in graffiti museum?
Two kinds of photography – where the photographer looks to create art from his or her photograph. I’m a documenter. I want to document the art in its architectural surrounding. I don’t want to create art photos. It’s their art, it’s my photograph. There was a show at the SF museum on Berlin tagging, the photographer created art images utilising the tags on the wall. I try hard to show the complete image – sometimes you can’t tell where it is or what it is in many of the present-day photos. That’s poor documentation.
Two kinds of photography – where the photographer looks to create art from his or her photograph. I’m a documenter. I want to document the art in its architectural surrounding. I don’t want to create art photos. It’s their art, it’s my photograph. There was a show at the SF museum on Berlin tagging, the photographer created art images utilising the tags on the wall. I try hard to show the complete image – sometimes you can’t tell where it is or what it is in many of the present-day photos. That’s poor documentation.
Malcom Jacobson (Uppsala, Sweden) – I met you in 1992. Article in NY times – do we over exaggerate the importance of that article. The article made a lot of people write.
The article was very influential. We’re in a “star” cultural – famous people. You can put your name on train that a lot of people would see. It just happened that that article caught the eye of enough different people that it started a movement. Cornbread and Taki 183 get credit for starting the movement. Mike171, SJK, The Greeks were writing up there. Comet, early writers but no one wrote about them. Right time, right place. I was there at the beginning and I could maintain enough interest to continue being a contributor.
Maria Chatzidates (Athens, Greece) – collaboration between people, a message. IN case of graffiti – more of a declaration of “Here I am” So why were you interested in graffiti.
Murals triggered an interest in people’s art, community art. MED tag I saw everywhere in NYC. There was also BIO with TATS Cru. It was a form of declaration. I was taking a few pictures, not a lot. But I had a sense that it was worth spending some time to record the tags. Graffiti art is everywhere. Not much in Russia. Never really saw any in China. Japanese comics…. Part of my problem with graffiti is it is often sexist. It’s bad ass and insulting sometimes. How/Nosm – they don’t work from drawings, they work from a telephone image.
Sophie Pinto (Lisbon, Portugal) – interested in exploring gender and graffiti. For example, I have some feminist group who don’t work with hierarchy – King, Toys – no queens in the group. Were you aware that you were making history?
Let me talk about women. Words like bitch for example, appeared very prominent in the old days. Where are the women artists? In the early days they weren’t there. The early days -Lady Pink. I have searched out and looked for women painters. From 2009 or so, many women have appeared. Look up Few and Far – their art is great. NEM in SF. Very outstanding women in SF, in the Bay area _ MEGS – AMANDA LYNN. A woman, SHEN, from San Jose, a piece of the puzzle. By 1990 I lost track of her. 6-7 months ago, I heard from her. She now lives in TX and has commissions to paint wonderful murals. Very important that women are seen as a major part of the culture and yes, they are less into hierarchal roles. Today. You could name hundreds of outstanding women. Beyond the Streets – Gastman’s show. They were well represented.
Let me talk about women. Words like bitch for example, appeared very prominent in the old days. Where are the women artists? In the early days they weren’t there. The early days -Lady Pink. I have searched out and looked for women painters. From 2009 or so, many women have appeared. Look up Few and Far – their art is great. NEM in SF. Very outstanding women in SF, in the Bay area _ MEGS – AMANDA LYNN. A woman, SHEN, from San Jose, a piece of the puzzle. By 1990 I lost track of her. 6-7 months ago, I heard from her. She now lives in TX and has commissions to paint wonderful murals. Very important that women are seen as a major part of the culture and yes, they are less into hierarchal roles. Today. You could name hundreds of outstanding women. Beyond the Streets – Gastman’s show. They were well represented.
Emma Love (Birmingham, UK) – Part way through a PHD in Birmingham. There’s six females on the call. I think of graffiti as a family. I’m welcomed, people are keen to show me their work. It’s a big thing in my research – graffiti is found everywhere. At some point there’s someone somewhere in the world shaking a can. Why the spread? What is it that makes people do this? What is the trigger that makes it spread?
Are you old enough to have gone to the Birmingham jams? Everyone came from all over the world to those. One year they painted interior walls and, in the morning,, it was all by painted out by agreement. In the beginning – there were no cameras. People couldn’t afford cameras or weren’t interested. People like me were out photographing. Can you send us the pictures?
I never shot prints – I did slides. I urged them to get simple kodak cameras – that’s the beginning of how the culture spread. A law suit in England – where people were sued for mailing pictures of graffiti. The snail mail spread the culture around the world. Without the internet, this would not have achieved the degree of coverage. You could take a picture, and I could see it 10 minutes after you painted it. The whole thing was to get the picture – they knew it was fragile and could be gone in the morning. Not sure if the image would be there in the morning (temporal). More important than the wall, was the image. But basically, it was fun, a chance to show off your talent and to be with friends as a collective.
Hasayeret Art Tours – (Tel Aviv, Israel) Influences of graffiti and gentrification. What do you see happening?
I come to graffiti less as an anthropologist or intellectual. My focus was on sharing at a gut street level. I suspect you have done much more research into this topic.
CONSUMERISM COOPTS OPPOSITIONAL CULTURE - Who gets to write? Who chooses? Those are more the topics I’m interested in. Billboards are some of the ugliest forms of graffiti – they’re part of the capitalist system so they are OK. I want to give dignity to the artists. I’ve always looked for the positive aspects. There are negatives, but I have given the art a sense of dignity and a sense of respect. Writers AESTHETICALLY ALTERED the buildings (versus destroying them). I never use the words legal or illegal but instead permission or non-permission. I don’t like the battle terms. Yes, Graffiti also has a role in gentrification
Pedro: The delicate paths for example Wynwood Walls is traveling. There are some lucrative movement for using graffiti to raise property values. Is this honest? Where is the voice of the TAKI’s in the world within that situation?
Does art on a building enhance or detract from a building? I think it can do both. If you have a Shepard Fairey – it improves the value of the building. It becomes a cultural landmark. Art improves value in some locations. Tony Goldman goes into Wynwood just as he went into South Beach, sees rundown locations. He buys the buildings and then he brings art and graffiti. Wynwood is now 10 years old or so – 4 million people came in 2019. They have a gallery that sells hundreds of thousands of dollars of merchandise, Graff related items and art each year. It is a Mecca. Counter culture often gets coopted by the capitalist system. CONSUMERISM COOPTS OPPOSITIONAL CULTURE.
